Bootstrap $550k In Film Pre-Sales

Episode 1: Michael DiBiasio-Ornelas shares his journey as a filmmaker, director and writer. Michael also talks about the constant growth and evolution of filmmakers and the never-ending nature of the filmmaking process.

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Show Notes:

(00:00) - Background and Early Filmmaking Experience

(05:19) - Balancing Filmmaking and Other Work

(08:17) - Translating the Vision from Writing to Filmmaking

(10:52) - The Importance of Storytelling and Performance

(13:22) - Balancing Control and Collaboration in Filmmaking

(15:46) - The Challenges and Motivation in Filmmaking

(19:06) - The Benefits of Shooting with Multiple Cameras

(22:03) - The Journey of a Filmmaker

(24:19) - The Role of Investors in Independent Filmmaking

(28:00) - The Writing Process and Identity as a Writer

(31:13) - The Brutal Realities of the Creative Field

(35:22) - The Challenges of Going All the Way in Filmmaking

(37:57) - The Process of Re-pitching a Film

(39:24) - The Challenges of Film Production

(41:19) - Adapting and Pitching a New Movie

(42:48) - Growing as Filmmakers

(44:22) - The Never-Ending Process of Filmmaking

(46:26) - Balancing Work and Personal Life

(50:52) - Shooting a Film in Eight Days

(54:49) - Preparation and Rehearsals

(01:00:36) - Strategic Filmmaking and Composition

(01:04:07) - Utilizing Quiet Locations in New York City

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Where To Find Michael:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-dibiasio-ornelas-42b62671/
https://fairsharefilms.com/

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Where To Find Sean:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sean-r-collins/
https://www.instagram.com/jukebooth/
https://www.jukebooth.com/

Transcript

Sean Collins: 0:04

All right. Welcome to the podcast. We have Michael today, who's a filmmaker, writer and director. And we're here to talk about his creative process. Thank you for joining us, Michael.

Michael D: 0:15

Yeah, happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Sean Collins: 0:17

Yeah. So if you could go through a little bit of your background and how you got to where you are today, just to catch us up.

Michael D: 0:24

Keep it succinct. I'm kind of like a self taught bootstrapping filmmaker. I started as a fiction writer, I had my first short story published while I was still an undergrad in New York, and I just by chance, I had met an alum of my fraternity and of my school, who was an independent filmmaker. I mentioned to him that people who read my fiction tended to compare the stories to films instead of narrative, like fiction. And he was like, Oh, you shouldn't make a short film. Sometime, I'll loan you all my equipment for free. And I was like, Oh, okay. And, you know, long story short, I, I took that short story. To the I went to Columbia. And the, as an undergrad, there wasn't a lot you could do in film, and screenwriting, there were some but that it didn't really work for me. But in terms of screenwriting, there was a course where you could go to the instructor to kind of audition almost. And his requirement was that you had to tell us, you had a specific story you wanted to tell in the class that via which he would teach you screenwriting. So you couldn't just say I want to be a screenwriter. So I took the story, like in my hand, I was just like, here, I had the story that was just published. I want to turn this into a short film, and I have this filmmaker from the school who will loan me the equipment. And he was like, he was excited. And basically, that was kind of off like I spent that semester learning how to write a screenplay and adapting that story to that format. Along the way, a bunch of friends who I told I was going to make the movie, we're like, oh, that sounds cool. I want to help. And so I just remembered all the people that said that. And then at a certain point, I called called, and all those favors, and we were doing it just independently just made a movie 15 minute Neo noir short, no idea what I was doing, read a couple books, poked around on online forums. And, you know, what, kind of well, and I caught the bug for sure. And the reception when we started screening it kinda until, like a few small film festivals, but nothing, nothing to write home about in terms of like the industry. But you know, the general feedback from people over you know, including some, some friends, like one friend was, like, I'm really glad I didn't have to lie to you. That this is like actually good. And I think you're good at this. And, you know, I that was, that was a long time ago, that was like 716 years ago. Or so maybe 17. And then shortly after I met my wife, who's an actor, going to NYU, for theater, and who then after that studied with, you know, pretty, pretty famous acting teacher. And we got together and we decided to make a movie together. And we've kind of been doing that since. So we, I write direct, and she acts and produces usually in the lead, or at least in a in a very large supporting role. And that's been our Mo. So basically, the only other factor into that is we, you know, I started that first short film was like $5,000 in like student credit card debt. And then the next few, the next one, we crowdfunded before that even existed, so friends and family just getting like, quote, unquote, investments. And then, and then we started crowdfunding. So it basically the way that I've operated in the way that I've survived at this point, we're going to, you know, be at it, like I said, for like 17 years now is just to keep growing. So the budgets have kind of roughly doubled with each short film that up to features, and then kind of moved as we've succeeded. In really direct audience building, I've been almost 100% independent, most of my career, which has been mostly awesome, it's definitely not easy. But what it's meant is like we make a film, we deliver it to whatever audience we have at the time, starting with friends and family and then growing into like a bit of a fan base. And then we kind of double our budgets and double our fan base like each time, up to the last few in the last few years where we started getting equity investors for micro budget features, which have also started doubling in budget and We've doubled an audience. And it's like, that doesn't mean I'm making a full living at this point. It's, I've, I'm in the middle of a big push for that. And so this last couple of years on, in a good stretch of months, it'll be 6040. Filmmaking income to also work as a marketing consultant and a copywriter. Or on the flip side, 4060, a lot of times 5050, it probably averages out to these days. And I've kind of worked my lifestyle around that, especially now that I've two kids. So, next few years are going to be crucial for kind of like seeing where things go,

Dan Modern: 5:35

when your friend like lent you the camera gear, did you have any camera experience? Or were you just you just learned right there, he

Michael D: 5:42

had a partner who actually works for the New Jersey Film Commission. And he was like, look like, we're gonna give you the equipment, but hire, hire a few camera people and hire a sound guy and do this thing. And that thing. I mean, they, at that point, they were they'd made a couple of features they like I wouldn't call them like, Yeah, I mean, they're, I mean, they're not they're independent filmmakers, like they weren't like industry pros or anything, but they knew what they were doing in terms of like staffing up. And so they gave us a little guidance there, up to an including, like, I just hired like the guy that who was my DP, he was just a friend who knew of more terminology around photography than I did, but had really only himself had a really good friend who was an actual DP. And we were, you know, 20s 20. And so, you know, when we got to set like, there was, there was a guy who kind of started the a camera guy basically took over as the actual DP. And like, I'll be honest, like, for anyone listening, it was like, I also there, like, they gave us a couple of lights. And I just, I didn't like even have plans for lights that got the camera guys were like, do you gonna do any lighting? And I was like, Yeah, should we? You know, what do you think if you go? Yeah, exactly. And it was it was a black and white Neo Noir. So we got to kind of lucky there because it's like we had to, I don't even know if there were 1k That would have been to like 500 Watt, tungsten lights. But they got us through the whole shoot other than, you know, your black and white, you'd have to worry about the color temperature. So we could use

Sean Collins: 7:19

practicals to, it sounds like you do a lot of like, when you started out, like a lot of people, it's like build it as you go. Like, there's no like this is we have to wait till we have budget, we have to wait till we have the right gear. It's like we want to make this we want to make this now

Michael D: 7:33

not only that, it's like we you know, even before I really knew what I was doing these terms, like my goal, I think it's because I'm, I I think that even still today, one of the main reasons I'm a director is to protect the sanctity of the vision that I have as a screenwriter, right. And it's probably just the same thing. But I am kind of softening a little bit in these terms, depending on who I'm talking to. But like, even back with that first one, it I was very concerned with telling the story, the story photographically in a way that measured up to what I was used to seeing at the time on DVD. And, you know, we didn't, we didn't quite get there, but we got closer than we had a right to. And it's because of that focus. And even like I got when I met Rebecca, who's an amazing actor, I started filling out the other side of that was just performance, which I really, really focus on in terms of casting, and rehearsing and stuff like that. Because that's the other element that's like, if you have something that where you pay really close sincere attention to telling a good story. And you have good actors and clean sound like not to diminish the importance of lenses and light and camera movement, like I those are all great things but especially when you're at like really low budgets. There are also things that you can get lost in terms of telling a good story. I think you're you're in really good shape. I've kind of operated that way for a lot of the time and doing the best to collaborate with you know, DPS and to you know, ride the line between quality and speed or you know, budget Yeah,

Sean Collins: 9:31

I think people get lost in gear sometimes they're like, well I need this and then it

Dan Modern: 9:35

just holds it back even further. You know, because you're just thinking need more and more and more when you could just get it done like you said with great great audio when a great story.

Michael D: 9:43

Yeah, and I will say like I make very strategic choices though. So like my second film again, like we had lights this time, we put we put a lot of work into it. I brought back the guy who shot the first movie as a cameraman as a as legit DP. We had a plan. We had storyboards, like I learned a lot from but we also had one crucial scene where we had a dolly shot, you know, and it's like, most of the film was dialogue driven. But I always kind of even at the low budgets, I always tried to find some way to overdeliver. Or to surprise people with something that's, you know, again, very strategically done to move the story forward. And in a pleasant, pleasant surprise kind of way,

Sean Collins: 10:25

what is the, like, you were talking earlier about the trying to make it look the same as you feel when you're writing it? And like, how, like, how is that process? Like you're writing this script? And you really want it to look a certain way? And how do you make sure it translates? Yeah,

Michael D: 10:41

I mean, look, that's, that's the big lift, right? That's the whole, that's the whole thing. I just, it's just, you know, I've been doing this for a while, I've seen, you know, a lot of peers drop off, you know, like, someone who's made two or three short films, and then they stop someone who makes one feature. And then they stopped someone who makes two features, and they stop, it just the pool gets smaller and smaller. There's, you know, in my peer group that I started with, there's not as many of us last year they're either people that are working in the industry, or people are a handful of us left trying to like, either break into the industry or do our own thing kind of in parallel or dip in and out, which is kind of where I'm at. What I see a lot of the times is like, I like talking to someone who sent me a script or, or someone who sent me a short film to watch and I'll, I'll start reading or watching and very quickly, I'll just be like, they didn't make an honest go of this, which is, you know, it to me, it's really straightforward. Like, I when I decided I wanted to make movies, I want them to look like the movies that you know, even low budget or independent movies that I watched growing up, there's just something about them that qualitatively or even instinctually feels, right, you know, and, and so, like, there are different like, things you can point to that, don't log into that. So like, like really granular there's, I feel like a lot of people are almost separate to the idea of like, getting hung up on gear and doing too much with camera movement, a lot of people will like, early on, they'll they just won't get close enough to the actors with the camera. Or they'll just they'll just like are there you know, as much as I'm talked a bit about, like running gun lighting kind of, so to speak that still, they won't they won't do it in a way where like you then kind of like, look at look at it next to the frame of a professional movie and see if it's like most of the way there.

Sean Collins: 12:41

Yeah, and you can't really settle unless you're, I guess against time and budget you're trying to really like get the most I mean, you spent all this time making this script and writing this thing and you don't want to just let it fall off at the end because you're not willing to like match it to something or look at different qualities. Yeah,

Michael D: 12:58

and at that point, like why are you moving forward? What are your goals like do you like like if you want to bring something to so you know, talk about this now too, but like another thing that's been on my mind lately is just in terms of how I've reframed my own thinking is I so like my first feature I shot myself I'd never to be DP anything before but I shot me on feature. It was the only one is gonna get made. I shot enough in my day job as a video marketing kind of predator. To feel like I could pull it off but I had to put a lot of work into you know, lighting I had to like get some pretty serious like a pretty great like be cam AC kind of guy to like be with me every step of the way. And if you if you look at the results and put it against you know like a million dollar indie It doesn't it doesn't measure up. But if you put it against like a Duplass brothers or a Joe Swanberg movie, where you're like, Oh, this is a good story. The acting is really good. More so with the Duplass than Swan Swanberg the sound is is, is solid. But there's just like the framing is all like on point. There's like an atmospheric feeling to it. And then once the guy got in and did the color grade, it was close enough. You know, and then like, like the best that movie ever looked, and we screened around the country with that one. The best I've ever looked was in the Screening Room in La because the Screening Room in La knows how to juice every last ounce of quality out of a DCP right. That's the only time I was like, Oh, this is like, I got pretty close, despite all the limitations. You know.

Sean Collins: 14:37

Getting pretty close, as, like you said is more than some other people are doing where they fall off.

Michael D: 14:42

It's hard. You know, it's hard, like you gotta like you got to I consider myself fortunate that I can keep so much queued up in my brain all the time. Sometimes it's really bad for me like I've had some pretty serious like mental health episodes in my life, because like I think I just didn't realize that it was is like overstuffed in there. But you know, you know, I guess my mental illnesses have served me well when unset

Sean Collins: 15:09

Yeah, it's also like I think as a creative person, and whether you're a content writer or director, filmmaker photographer, like you always keep churning ideas, and when you're churning ideas, they all build up. And then you have this and that and you're trying to stack so many things, and it really takes over. But it's hard to get rid of that. Because I think that's kind of how you define yourself and how you get to the point where you're just creating as much as possible.

Michael D: 15:37

And it's also a balance between like the problem solver mindset and obsessiveness, right, I think Daniel, were talking about this before, where it's like, people can get lost in certain elements of like, a production. And it's, you have to know when to push and when to let go. You know, and it's, it's can be it's a case by case thing, you know, there's some things on set where, like, I just shot something a year ago, and we're finishing it up now. And there were some things that I was just like, you know, we're problem solving, we're low on time talking to DP, okay, let's switch up the plan. And this way, you know, instead of running a cam, let's run a and b, let's kind of shoot for coverage. But then when we get through this, let's make sure we get this other shot that is more dynamic, where we are moving the camera, it's not what we planned, but we can do it in 30 minutes instead of an hour, because all we have is 20 minutes, you know, and or by contrast, like this is a really crucial scene, we need to stick to the plan, we need to do these exact camera moves, no matter what even if we have to go into overtime, and even after reshuffle the schedule, because we only have so much overtime in the budget for the sag actors like but we got to do it.

Sean Collins: 16:42

Yeah. And how does that happen? Like with your process, like, when you have a certain a lot of time? What starts getting thrown by the wayside? Yeah, it's

Michael D: 16:53

a gut check. You know, it's kind of a gut check. You know, I'll say there are some things where you can gain an advantage in that area. So like, even though I don't do it necessarily anymore. Having edited my first feature like and several shorts, like it, you know, I do like it, I do have a skill for editing. It's another area where I can get really obsessed and like punish myself. Editing is just like a black hole. But but when you're on set, like if you have that like mindset and that understanding about how it's going to lay out on the timeline, that is a huge asset to knowing like what you can get away with, because like, that's another thing, another area where I've gained a lot of advantages that kind of shoot my edit, which lets me maximize. No, I shouldn't say that I shoot my edit. But I also allow good deal coverage. And I'll grab like bonus shots. It's also why I run two cameras, on not all but I run two cameras on a lot of shoots, I focus on a cam exclusively. But I always have B cam. They're particularly in like dialogue scenes where you can grab two shots for one without having to touch your shot list. But then also, I've just had some real gems that were surprises that weren't in the shot list in going into an edit because I told the B camera operator, hey, we're focusing on a cam, find a spot where you're out of the way and get something cool.

Sean Collins: 18:18

That's a cool way to do it. Like, it's almost like a surprise when you go in the editing room like oh, this was great. We got some extra coverage here. And I think it's a different way to approach it.

Michael D: 18:27

And sometimes it's like shots that people call out when they actually they end up watching the movie or like Yeah, we didn't plan that it was just became thing that

Sean Collins: 18:33

we grabbed, you know, yeah, but I think that's good. I think it's like you're adding this extra element of surprise even to yourself, like you're giving the direction to like, Hey, pick up something that we're not thinking of, or pick up something that's completely different than what we're doing on a cam and then we can mix it in.

Michael D: 18:50

And that's another balance and it's another thing that gets better as you get your reps in and get more confident because it's not as urgent and it's not and it's like desperate that everything go like perfectly according to plan because it's not going to but the more you can kind of like work within that and with that and click like almost like it's almost like let going of letting go of control in certain areas let you grab control from a different perspective that my experience usually makes the project better

Dan Modern: 19:26

how do you keep like your motivation? Because you said some of these films are like a year or two years long. Like me I would just I get obsessed so I'd be like hyped about it for you know, a couple months but if it's taking like a year I think I might like fall off and be like, not as excited. I don't know like I do much shorter film so I don't do like the the features or anything like that. It's more like dog style.

Michael D: 19:50

It's a good question. I think there's a couple of answers. One is AI for better or worse. So historically, like I, I write a lot of movies, and I write, and I write notes down for even more. So like, for this year alone, I've probably written down 20 ideas for features. And then I've probably started writing notes, or I've written some scenes or written some outlines for five or six. And then in a given like, one to three year period, one of those projects will just assert itself. And it'll be like, it'll be a need, like this needs to get done. So that and that's the only way I found I've been able to sustain myself. And it's also why like, as hard as it's been being 100%, pretty much 100% independent for such a long time. I'm able to do it, because I care like that much. This project I'm in posts on is probably the least like that in the purest way. But I still found a way to it, because it's just like, at this point, it's like I'm, I feel like I'm fighting for survival for my career in this like, a dress wearing your podcast. Yeah. Bullshit, bullshit economy,

Sean Collins: 21:15

right. And with all the stuff that's going on, in the whole writing scene, and the whole filming, yeah, we could

Michael D: 21:21

talk about it for like, fucking four hours. But at minimum, I could. But um, you know, so like, this is the most commercially minded film that I've made, but I also like, I can't help myself, like, I found a way to make it. Mine and to get myself to not even get to myself, I just inevitably find myself caring about it a lot. Because I'm just like, I it's a different path. But just like, it's a comedy, the goal is to have a lot of fun, I've had a lot of fun making it and like, I just want to get it too out to as many people as possible so that they can hopefully laugh just as much, if not more, because I'm sick of it. And I know all the jokes. But so that's a big part of it. And then the other part is, um, yeah, it's a really good question. I think it's just repetition. You know, like, so like, the first feature, I was, like, you know, it was so important, right? And it should be. But it was like, I definitely, I didn't know better. And I was young, but like, I already did it. I was like, I like literally, like I dashed to shoot the film during like two weeks vacation from my day job. went right back into my day job where I was a shooter and an editor. So shooting and editing all day, then editing my feature. Like, either in my office for a few hours and or at home at night, my wife was working in restaurants at the time, typical like actor server set up so like I was alone at night a lot and I would work so like it was just, I just worked myself to, to the point of injury and like I like I literally like suffered nerve damage in my arms. Just in this like kind of probably borderline unhealthy or definitely unhealthy kind of obsession to get it done, you know, and got some got some help with that kind of thinking. It's also a movie about mental health, which is funny, but but then from there, just kind of okay, like once you've been through it once it's easier the second time, and then you kind of you know, maybe make some better decisions and then you just get a little bit more used to it. But then also I do give up at points like, especially when you have no money. So like for my first feature, we shot it for $20,000 around $20,000 crowdfunded, shot it in the streets of Brooklyn barely got the shoot and for that money, barely got the rough cut out. Just because I was doing it for free. And then we were stuck. And I luckily because the audit was done and I could show it I it's a whole other story, but I ended up getting an investor on board to finish the movie. But there were several months before that where I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna finish this movie on that one both I mean look so like we had a plan and we came I think we did come close. I mean, that movie played intensities. It was it was a kind of an act of will that that happened by Rebecca and I but like that movie you know, we didn't have any name actors. It was a low budget movie that the final like budget to finish it was like 60k One lucky break on some one of the bigger film festivals would have been a different story in terms of the investor return so he knew it was high risk, high reward another we had a whole distribute I'm a marketer. So like, I have a whole sales and marketing plan that we executed that was thrown off by, again, not knowing any better. It's very common, but like a, not even the distributor, but someone working for the distributor who I think lost their jobs shortly after misleading us on some things in terms of like, your movie will be available on this date, and like organizing the whole distribution market plan around that date, and then them saying, Oh, no, I never said that. And then, so that threw it off, and then it still did kind of work. And if I knew what I knew, now, I would have thrown like two or three grand and Facebook ads at the VOD release, and we that might have been a profitable movie.

Dan Modern: 25:46

It's almost good that that happened. Because now you know, yeah, yeah, that's

Michael D: 25:49

exactly. That's how that's how you get it. That's how you learn. And so the next time around, it's like, it's a different value prop for the investor. It's like, okay, like, you've seen what we can do. Now, we're going to do it again. But we're going to do it with a little bit more knowledge about how to bring the film to market. And you know, and it's also like, I talk a lot, I kind of right now I'm doing a daily the last couple years, I'm reading a lot online about this, what I'm calling like a startup filmmaker mindset, because like, I, I've been saying it for a while, but a lot of the marketing strategies. And the funding strategies that are employed are really from like that zero to one like startup filmmaker, mindset where I'm like, operating as a brand or operating like, yeah, operating like as a brand new storyteller. And so like, because going back to I was saying before, like, the only reason I'm here at all are still here, because I grew up middle class, I don't, and I didn't go to film school, the whole Columbia thing was like, well earned in terms of like, how I killed myself in high school, and I was on scholarship, like, I wasn't still paying those bills. But you know, my I wasn't much of my survival. I'm not gonna say success, necessarily, my success, whatever measure of success, and then my survival to my result, as a marketer, as a, as a filmmaker,

Sean Collins: 27:09

I think that's kind of like, what happens in this world. Like, I also don't, I didn't go to film school, I don't have really a film background, and I just found my way and navigated through everything, which is kind of what you're saying. It's like, you learn from experience. And it's like the best way, like, if you want to make features, you have to go make a feature. The

Michael D: 27:31

tough part is like, they're so expensive, either in straight dollars, or sweat equity, or both. So it's like, you gotta you gotta learn a lot in between quickly, because you'd only get so many chances. You know, like, a year ago, before I shot this movie, I was like, Am I done? Like, am I not gonna be able to raise any more money? Like, I'm too tired to crowdfund I got a kid. Like, it'd be 40 soon. I'm like, not that I won't do it ever again. But like, I can't do it right now.

Sean Collins: 27:57

Right? And after you crowd fund so many times, does it feel like it's not? No, it's actually gets easier.

Dan Modern: 28:02

And it's not like your name, like your names not tarnished. If you didn't do well, right, it's just how much work do you want to put into it? Is that what you're saying? I have

Michael D: 28:10

a handful of investors across four features, right? And if I want them to come back, I need to give them returns. And, and or if I want to bring other investors, the first thing they're going to ask is like, well do your films make money back and you have to be able to demonstrate that if you want to keep making films, or you crowdfund or you, you know, zero budge, which, you know, people can do, you know, even even as, even though I'm saying like, Oh, am I done, it's like, if this movie hadn't happened, the next likeliest scenario would have been I took a few years off and lick my wounds and like, shoot something for like five or 10k in savings, or a split of that, and crowdfunding, and I would have found that I would have found my motivation again. But you know, that could have also been five years later, because at the time, one kid now too, but like, versus like actually giving up in total. And, you know, I also have an advantage in that. I can always write a book and be happy. Not 100%, because I love filmmaking, but I can. It's not like I don't know, outlet.

Sean Collins: 29:19

Is that something that you've always had this like writing this ability to just write and like you always wanted to write like, when you were way younger before college, or is this something that's new?

Michael D: 29:30

Yeah, I've been I've been at it like for as probably since as early as possible. You know, it's like, I wouldn't say that's 100%. But I would say a majority of the capital W writers that I know or that I've studied, like, they we come by it honestly, but it's like a response to some other emotional need in the home environment or elsewhere. So it's like I had some issues. that I was dealing with and taking on. And it was a, I think, a natural like response to kind of make some sense of the world or get some emotional safety and stability. Yeah, and then it, you know, and then it kind of becomes an obsession or part of, you know, an identity. And for me, like, I think the turning point was, I was really into team sports growing up, around like junior high school, I was starting to get attention as a writer. And whereas I'd really only gotten attention before from athletics, and just like broad academics. And writing was something I really loved. And when people were like, Oh, you're good at it, you could do this. I was like, what, really? And also, like, you know, I was mature enough at that point to know that I was probably not even going to be a college athlete, nevermind, like beyond that. So it's like, why am I that was your whole thing? It's like you really liked it, you know, why am I putting so much of my identity into this thing that's going to end like senior of high school, whereas it didn't have to, like, I dropped some sports and kept others but like, it just wasn't my focus anymore. I turned to Journalism and Creative Writing. And that was, that was a big decision. And I think a big part of you know, getting into the hugely competitive like, undergrad school that I got into was my I mean, they told me that my essay was a big part of like, why I got in, and that was all about my identity as a writer, which is, and it wasn't, I did not pull punches in that essay. It didn't say like, oh, I'm a writer. It's great. I was like, this sucks. But like, but I also love it, it's who I am. You know,

Dan Modern: 31:45

I think they're probably not used to hearing that much. So they stuck out. Yeah,

Sean Collins: 31:49

kind of how a lot of people are in the creative fields is it's like, I mean, we like to say all these great things about it, but it's, there's a lot of brutal realities in it. I mean, it's not, it's not just like, all sunshine,

Dan Modern: 32:03

right, they see the finished product at the end, that's what everyone sees, but they don't see see

Sean Collins: 32:07

the journey to get there. Which, which is like in feature films, or films, or any of that stuff, it's like, there's a lot of legwork that goes into that. Yeah, and

Michael D: 32:17

the films that were like, it's this, the reason I think I got into film is it's like, for me, it's like, it's the best balance of like, my different sides. So it's like, the part of me that love team sports, you know, I get to collaborate on a set, you know, the part of me that likes to problem solve, and gets like, juiced from it, like, I get to do that on set the part of me that likes to be in a leadership position. And, and for good reason, like I was in leadership positions. When I was younger, for like, my resume, you know, or, or because I was just like, Oh, if I don't do it, this guy's gonna do it. And you don't want this guy doing it. And it's like, but with the film, it's like, oh, I'm doing this to pursue this vision, which the writer put together, which is like, part of like, my core self, right? So it's like this nice, this nice physicalized balance of like, creativity and real world interaction. But what I will say is, like, I until I wrote my novel, which I just kind of just wrote on my own over a few years, finally, a couple years ago, I didn't I hadn't reached the bottom, you know, of the, of my identity as a writer as a creative. And that was a dark journey, too. But it was like, it's different. You know, it's, it's lonely. And I don't want to do it all the time. I think my ideal would be someday be at a point where I can, you know, make a film every one to three years and write a book every few years as well, and maybe alternate, but like, because neither kind of completely fulfills me, I don't think. But it was a much deeper kind of excavation on my emotional and a existential level to kind of go all the way to the bottom of a novel, too.

Sean Collins: 34:18

Yeah. And have you done that in filmmaking? Anything? Have you gone all the way to

Michael D: 34:22

the bottom? You know, I don't think I have and the only reason is because of budget. You know, I don't I don't ever cite budget as a challenge. And I still don't, it's just that I don't think I can get to that. It's also it's also like a privilege. You know, like Christopher Nolan can go as deep as he wants, anytime that he wants because of what he's done. Right? And it's like, I think you It's hard with film, especially with independent film because you're not in the system and you don't get as many reps you have to make the most of the ones that you get. But it's you really have to, I think you really have to earn it and I'm just getting to the point where like so I'm I'm I'm redeveloping and re pitching a movie that I've been working on for a few years. That's a, you know, the budgets in the low millions. And it's, there's, if you go back even like five years and told me, I would have been doing that I would have been like, Alright, dude, who do you think you are? And but now it's like, I feel like I could step up to that and actually feel lucky that a few years back when this movie almost happened, the first time that it didn't, even though that was really hard for me, and I really struggled in my life. Also, I was making it too important. But I don't know if I even just having shot this last movie last year, which even though it's still technically micro budget, the scope is just bigger. And I think I just grew as a manager of the set. Now I feel ready to like, take that on and go to that. But even then, like, even if we get three or 4 million for that movie, it's it's it's not I wouldn't say it's going all the way to the bottom. I think you have to. It depends. I mean, if if you're doing that, you know, like, if you're doing that even on a budget, budgets, budgets, not necessarily the point, it's just the time that it affords, right? So like someone could shoot on Saturdays for like, three or four years, with like one actor, putting together this beautiful tone poem, and they could feel like they're getting to the bottom of it. I don't know how many people are gonna watch that. But maybe a lot of people would I don't know,

Sean Collins: 36:30

you never know. I mean, some people are into weird things, I guess. Yeah, I think it was interesting that you said, you're re pitching something. So like, you pitch something, you've pitched a film. And what happened? Like it just didn't make it to the end goal of how much you needed, or it just wasn't ready. And like, how do you go and read pitch something like that? And know that it's going to possibly sit? Yeah,

Michael D: 36:57

I mean, it's a choice, right? But, but it was part of the part of the revised plan. So like, I wrote this movie. So I, my first feature came out. And then I wrote this, I met a producer in New York, I was living in New York at the time. And he's like, I really liked this. I think you're talented. I'd like to work together someday, you can send me a script when you have one. And so when I had the script, a few months later, I sent it to him. He was like, I think there's something here. And so we developed it together for a few drafts. And he, he was like, he's, he wasn't his legit producer. He had been on the producer team for like, I think it was a four or $5 million movie with an A Lister at you know, at the center of it. And so we we wrote the movie to bring to that same actor. And we so that just was, you know, I had made one feature, it was good, but it didn't win Sundance or anything. So it was basically a nobody to both Hollywood and independent financers. So the way in for this movie, like, I think at the time, we're looking for one or 2 million was to get this actor onboard. And so we finally got the script to him, his agent, his agent liked it. And we were like, Oh, we might be making this movie for a million or $2 million. Then it had to go to his manager, who also liked it, but said he just made a movie that's similar to this. So it's going to be a pass. And so it went from like, oh, we might make this $2 million movie my whole life might change to back to square one. And it's just one person that basically yeah, and in the meantime, we had gotten investments. We got we got we got a decent amount of money and to start making the movie, but not not anywhere near a million dollars. So do

Sean Collins: 38:49

you rewrite it for another actor? Is that the plan? And that that's what you're trying to do? No,

Michael D: 38:54

I mean, when I say it was written for the actor was written to be attracted to him. But it was, we didn't check with that. We didn't change it after that. Well, we did do after that was we spent another kind of like a year, year and a half. Back channeling again to a few other actors who this producer had access to. And literally like months, especially if you're back channeling it's like months can go by before you hear back, you have to send like 20 follow ups. And some people we just stopped responding to or like clearly it's a no because you're not reading the script. And then we went, we hired a casting director out in LA. And again, another couple of times, we thought thought we're getting close. Never did and then. So long story short, after a couple of years. We had no movie and we'd burn through like 25 grand in development money and I was just I was miserable. But what ended up you know, and I and I developed severe chronic insomnia. But out of that, I came up with the idea for a different movie that I wrote quickly. Like really quickly. And I went back to my producer team by then there were two or two other, there was another producer. So the three of us, four of us, including Rebecca, producing the movie for free. And I went back to them, I was like, Look, I wrote this other movie, I think I'm going to take it to the investors as a new pitch and be like, hey, this original one is not happening. But this movie is a lot like that. It's just smaller. So like, let's make this movie and increase our credibility in everywhere across the board, both within Hollywood and in the New York independent film circles. And then we'll go back to pitching. The bigger, they're both romances the big the bigger rom com. And so we did that. That's the movie, I think that we connected about the sleepless. And it, you know, COVID happened, and it was finished in the middle of COVID and stuff. But, you know, again, we were another we were like two specific, like lucky breaks away from really breaking out with that one, in terms of industry recognition. But again, enough people have the right sort saw it and enough audience saw it. And we got enough good reviews critically and by the audience that we did succeed in raising our profile as a team. We also made a movie for like, 100k, that looks like it could have been made for up to like a million and that as impressive people and so. But even for us, we were like, Oh, we don't want to go back and make this other movie for this that's on the same scope of story. Like let's How do we grow as filmmakers, I talked about how I always want to be growing. So that so I was also one of the producers. And I was kind of like the lead producer of both asleep. Listen, this, we redeveloped the script for this other movie called stalemates over most of last year, and I'd finally got to a place where we're happy and we grew it to that like, three to$6 million movie, it's just the next level up complexity, a few more characters, a few more locations, bigger scope of story more like what you would expect when you watch a rom com on like Netflix or Hulu versus like, you know, something that on IFC? No, no, we didn't. So we're still we're shopping it like right now. So like, my current film that's imposed, we're bringing AFM to market like to bring to try to sell it. And then we'll also be kind of meeting some people and talk to some people about that. And I'm developing some other relationships with like production companies and starting to think about who what actors we can get the script to now to kind of get all the plates spinning and give it another go. And I'm just WAY less attached to it. I'm just like, I'm at the same time. I'm like, sell this movie. If everybody loves it, I can easily make a sequel to the movie and have another really fun time with my friends just hopefully on a bigger budget. And then I'm writing something else that's just entirely different than

Sean Collins: 43:01

all of them. So it's like never ending. It's like you have something in post and you're writing something and you're pitching something and it's like, I mean, but I think that's how this is like that's how this industry is like you either have to be okay with just pushing and pushing until you break or something breaks whether you get that final break.

Michael D: 43:22

Yeah, and it's hard because like I you know, at the same time I you know, this last year my Rebecca and and I and the DP from this horror comedy that we shot the Yorkie werewolf, I still laugh at the title. We we kind of banded together to form a production company here in Vermont, where we live, that's where we're trying to model a more. It's called fair share films, and we're trying to model a more balanced and sustainable way of doing things. It's a huge challenge. We don't even know if we can do it, but we want to try. And we don't know how we're going to do it. We're just like, we're literally just meeting every week and talking about it and like laying groundwork and employing different strategies. And, you know, I don't have a lot of specifics about how we're going to do it other than like, it seems like, in some ways, a natural extension of the empowered way of doing things we've built to this point. It's just a matter of scaling it to the point of sustainability. But like, it's tough, like I've got a three year old and a three month old now. And it's like I it's it's forcing me to be a better leader again, because I have like, five minutes on my phone on Google Chat to catch up with some of the guys finishing posts in different capacities. Before I grabbed the baby or it's like midnight or one of the morning and I just finished catching up on the marketing work that didn't finish during the day because I was splitting baby duties with my wife because he had to work. And then I have again I have like you know About half an hour to an hour to move one of these projects forward. And like today, I had a long call with my manager about both the films that we're working on at the moment. And it's like, that was great. And I felt energized. But now I'm behind on like my marketing work that I have to catch up on after this call and might have to do on a Friday night at like, midnight. But it's like, the alternative is not being who I am as a person. Or like, which I'm open to get to this place, moving to another country where they offer more support for people like me. Yeah,

Sean Collins: 45:33

so what you're saying is, we're taking up too much of your time currently. Just kidding. No, no, I'm kidding. I get it man. Like, I have a one year old. Dan has kids as well. And it's like, you learn to like restructure your schedule, like you didn't know you had so much free time before. Like,

Michael D: 45:52

yeah, and the whole, like, work smarter, not harder thing gets, like becomes a mandate. Right. But it's like, my experience at this point has helped me with that, too. Like, I, I've written about this before online, too. I, I have to direct something every year. The only time I don't is if I'm in posts on a feature, because I'm like, don't sacrifice the quality of posts on the feature to go into production and something or, you know, I don't want my wife to leave me. But

Sean Collins: 46:19

that's crucial. Yeah, I mean, you gotta keep everybody happy.

Dan Modern: 46:25

I love that I was gonna bring it up earlier. But with your wife, too, it's like, not only is she an actor, but she, I'm assuming pushes you as well to, like, do what you do and be creative. And you know, because you guys are working together, which is super important to have that significant other support system next to you. It seems like she really is,

Michael D: 46:44

it's been indispensable. And it's like, it's one of those things to where it's like, if my life were different, and I were single, like, first of all, I don't, my work would be different, I wouldn't be the same, like, I wouldn't be the same person. But second of all, like I would, it's hard, like, you know, like, I know a few people who have spouses and families that are still working, but a lot of them are, you know, maybe they have a boyfriend or girlfriend or husband or a wife, but they don't have kids or if they do it's like, again, there's only a few of us that are still working. Unless you break out. And but yeah, yeah, first of all, you need someone who gets it and isn't gonna like, Rick, you have the coals for having a vision that you need to pursue, but then it's on us to listen, when they're like, hey, like, You're going too far, this way with it. But it's, it's, you know, it's pretty indispensable to have someone you can also collaborate with, specifically on the work. It's hard to and it's also like, what I want to say it's you need to be careful then of making time for your life outside of it. You know, we've we've, we fell victim to I think earlier in our careers where it's like, we were very professional on set to the point of people not even realizing that we were together until like, halfway through shoot, but like, are like when you're on set all day. And then like producing at night. It's like you're not going to dinner, you're you know, you're not having those like regular conversations, you gotta be careful about that. Yeah, your real life kind of it falls by the wayside, you gotta put it first. And the film industry does not support that in most ways. So it's a whole other thing we're doing a fair share films were like, so this my both of my last few features, the one we shot in eight days, then when we shot in how many days we shoot 16 year something. We set a goal and mostly achieved in most days of like, we're not going into overtime, both for financial reasons, too, but mostly for for to treat people well. And in the idea of getting them through the 14 days like intact, or the 16 days in tact is. You know, the sag sag actors would work their eight hour shift, which also meant that the crew, which always has to put in more hours are doing more like 10 or 11, verses 12 to 14, which is a little bit more normal, which is not like it's more like French hours, I guess they call it because in Europe they're more like that. But we're we're pretty determined to stick with that. Moving forward as much as we

Sean Collins: 49:20

can if you wanted to just touch upon that that film the sleepless and that the eight days. I think that's a really interesting thing. Like I saw the the idea of this, like eight days shooting whole film was pretty wild.

Michael D: 49:33

I mean, there's really just like a couple of core elements that went into it. And it wasn't even like it's funny talking about it, because it's the first question that I would have to write, but it's like, in our whole journey of the film, it was it was not even like a major part of it. It was more that the way that it had to go. I mean, we the script wasn't super long. It was very heavy. It's almost all dialogue and so on. And it was it was a walk and talk around like a literal like four mile radius near where we lived at the time in Brooklyn. And you know, just kind of like you know, shaking things out with the budget and the schedule it's just the way that it came out.

Sean Collins: 50:22

And he said five days of paid rehearsal.

Michael D: 50:24

Yeah. So that's so that's so I, the day job I was at the time I was out for a while. So in addition to vacation days, I had like sabbatical available and why took a half sabbatical, which basically means I had for the year, I had four weeks of vacation, and can't remember a few extra weeks of paid time off, based on like my longevity of the company. So I took six weeks off, even though it was an eight day shoot, and you would think I was like, Oh, you take six weeks off, you'd shoot. You know, that's standard in the 2020 21 days. But I, what felt more right to me was to spend more of that time proportionally on pre Pro. Because with my first feature, it was really, really hard to get pre pro right in a timely fashion while working full time. And so I knew I needed like, there was a degree of pre Pro that I could do. Around my day job, I had also been promoted, like once and so like my I had more responsibilities. And that just, I was just anxious about the amount of time so I was like, I want to use a good amount of the six weeks on pre Pro. And then we we definitely we rehearsed a good amount for my first feature paid rehearse paid rehearsals. And it was really beneficial and to making our days really, because I was also very dialogue heavy. So I'm like, let me give the actors as much support as I can, so that I can hurry them along. But also get them home at a decent like hour or after this amount of time. So with the sleepless when all that you know, locations and location fees, like that's, that was a factor as well, when it all shook out, I was like, Okay. And I always reserve even going back to my first feature before even knew any better, I made a good choice about this. I always reserved two days for pickups or overruns, minimum. So everybody knew that even that was an eight day shoot. I think the actors in particular knew like Nyan B, who had a busier schedule as an actor. It was in every scene, he knew that we might need another day or two. But that also would have cost me a good amount of money and OT. So yeah, I mean, the paid rehearsals were the same. So I for the first time ever, with that time off. I could focus exclusively on pre Pro. So that was huge to maximizing prep for the eight days.

Sean Collins: 53:25

Right. So you're like, you're basically prepared and more well prepared going into it.

Michael D: 53:31

Yeah. And then the rehearsals were also huge. And then and then you know by then we've gotten much better at hiring you know, you learn you make your mistakes with the short films and you learn how to spot bad hires and we had one bad hire on this one too. You can't avoid it sometimes. You know, there was the makeup artists was like after the first few days was like this is different than when I and we were like a great indie shoot, but she was like this is different than what I expected and blah blah blah. And I want to talk to Michael and blah blah blah. This was the like the line producer and the producer coming to me. I was like I don't want to talk to her I'm busy. And they're like well what do you want us to do? I was like what do you want to do? And they're like we want to fire her I was like okay fire and you know because like we're busy making the movie like she's not making the movie at this point she's

Dan Modern: 54:13

don't have time for the makeup artist

Michael D: 54:14

yeah and not you know look like if it's not a match fine if she if she misunderstood fine, but like we got to make the movie but otherwise it's just like from the top down because like my producer in the sleepless is a good friend of mine. He's he wasn't he's not there right now. But he was in LA most of his career he has produced like, most of the movies is produced or at least like four or $5 million. He's produced several or been on the producer scene for like $10 million movies. He was on set, like sitting on a campus chair like that we you know, we got at the boat at the 99 cent store. And on $100,000 movie, like doing acting as a producer and ad, you know, and he was a good sport. Word in he believed in the project but he was like, there were certain moments for us like I didn't know it was like this. Like but but he but he ran with it and then our line producer was indispensable and just kind of on down you hire the right people, especially for something that has our like sociological eye I would hope with the sleepless was part of my goal like artistic merit. You know, it's like the Yorkie werewolf, it's like we did hire well. But like, we heard about a lot of young, hungry passionate people that didn't have as much experience because the talent pool is just different in Vermont than to New York, but like, they really cared because they were having a good time and learning a bunch. But like, you know, it was a little bit more on me to, like, manage the set and maximize resources, because I couldn't necessarily count on. I mean, it could, because like, everyone was like really having a good time and really wants this like silly, silly movie to get out there. And like, you know, other people to have a good time. But it's not the same as like, the sleepless where we're talking about, like, major issues of concern, to me as an artist that made it into the voices of the characters, right? If you have crew that read the script, and like, share those opinions, it's easier for them to like, lay it on the line for you. And but that's also comes with a responsibility, right. So that's the other element that we take, regardless of budget, we're really kind to everyone, we really appreciative, I say thank you as much as possible. Whenever I need to, someone to change something, I try to be as constructive criticism as possible. I try to be patient with people respectful, like I never put the My vision for the film above being a human being. And so like, again, even like when we're on the Yorkie werewolf, like, Rebecca and I were upset at many points during that shoot, because it was just the messiest shoot we've had in a while, because like, we were doing a lot on a low budget, we were in a smaller market where the there are gaps in the talent pool, at least in terms of experience level. And we felt like it was messy. But then the feedback that we were getting from cast and crew was that the shoot was very organized, and they felt very, like heard and respected, which is just how we operate. So like our, our like B or B plus to them still felt like an A. And so like that, that that's a big part of it, too. And then when you get on set, it's just like, I guess the only other element I haven't talked about is, you know, the script was written to move quick. It just it it needed the rehearsals for the actors, and indeed actors who could handle the great amount of dialogue. You know, we they joked about it, but also like, I think they struggled a bit nobly not not in terms of like not being able to pull it off. But explicitly, like Rebecca, I knew had deep theater experience. She had deep training in theatre, Off Broadway and stuff. And then Jambi when we interviewed him, or when we worked with the casting director to cast that role. We we kind of set it as a as a mandate that whoever we make offers to or whoever we meet with, like they need to have deep theater experience or training or the equivalent, right. And he did. So I think the only reason it worked was that he and Rebecca were real, like live theater pros who could handle that much dialogue at once and still be in character and not like crack up a crack, I should say. And then the last element photographically being really strategic about planning and execution, so like the DP, again, every DP I talked to, in interviews, I was like, Look, I'm going to ask the impossible here. i They're going to be walking and talking. I think there's a lot we can do to kind of keep mobile and keep fast. Like I want to shoot most of the movie on a gimbal Well, we can do some other like, we can do some tripod shots, or the equivalent even if it's like handheld but like, Yeah,

Sean Collins: 59:10

is that a timing thing too, with the gimbal it's like to make it quick.

Michael D: 59:13

But you know what, the woman I hired she was just like, she was she was I mean, a teenage DeLucia Don't you know I hire her by all means but just as long as she's available the next time I need to work are there but you know, we've arrived and like she was just she had the this great combination that I think is pretty rare in DPS where she was like, chill, and rolled with things but also her expertise and her confidence were just so palpable on set. It's just like, Okay, we we got to keep mobile, the gimbal got it set up the camera. I know everything that this camera can do. We're going with this Fuji XT three odd choice DSLR to shoot this whole movie. And we've got we've got these two or three lights. And we're shooting black and white baked in, so we don't have to worry about that in post and like these really big decisions that made confidently and executed with precision just paid off. And the other element with our scouting and because we didn't really, I didn't really I had a shot list, but I didn't storyboard. Because it didn't really make sense to and I'm glad we didn't waste time on it. But you know, another thing I tried to focus on even going back to my first features like, okay, we're not gonna be able to do anything fancy, we're not gonna have time for a lot of camera moves. We're not shooting on the biggest best camera model, we don't have the biggest best lens of the day. lens of the day, I don't know what that means. Lenses are lenses, but I guess they still make cool new lenses. But um, but our compositions are going to be really tight, like they're going to feel significant like, like, I did this other pockets interview a few months back about like, where the it was that a student project and they were talking to different filmmakers about how Kubrick had influenced them. And a big part of my conversation was how, how much he focused as someone who started in photography on like, beautiful compositions. And so with the sleepless, like, if you watch it, you'll see that even though there's not a lot of cuts, I mean, there are plenty but like, we we really focused on, keep the camera moving along with the actors only move the camera if you have to, but like the actors are moving a lot in the movie, create space for the actors to perform, and to build a relationship and to tell the story, stay out of their way. Don't cut around things if you don't have to. But like, let's let's I wrote the script with specific beautiful locations in mind, just another big element. Like let's, let's bring this move them around to these beautiful locations at two in the morning. And this like, really studied black and white photography. And then let's just put a lot of effort into the compositions themselves feeling like these beautiful moving like photographs. And that, like, again, that's a lot of prep work. But when you're on set, it's really just execution. So it allowed us to kind of still move relatively quickly. Because we weren't trying to do anything fancy. We're trying to do some things. Simple well, and beautifully. Yeah.

Sean Collins: 1:02:12

And I think by building the right team, you're able to make those things happen. It's like all about, like, you can write the best script ever. But if you don't have the right team, yeah,

Michael D: 1:02:22

and I can give you a really specific example on the production side to where like, one of the first couple so we had this. You watch you watch at least some of it right? So you've probably seen this part. Early on in the movie, they take a very long stroll. And they're just met and they're walking and talking before they decide to like go to the park. I don't remember I think that's when they go to the park. And wished we scouted this way. And we shot this way we you know, we didn't have any permits, we did not didn't have anything locked down. I happen to live in one of the rare sleepier neighborhoods in New York City where you can get away with this. Yeah, and we everybody showed up at like 130. So that we could roll at like 230 like an hour to get going. And we had one production vehicle, which was like a rented Jeep, and the line producer and the producer, and the makeup artist wrote in the gutter in the jeep. They started they parked behind the actors. The DP would lead because it was like a two shot that they were walking through the DP would lead the sound guy was behind her, the gaffer would with one hand held the light with the other hand held the DP. And they we just we walked like like six, like, first of all, and we didn't know the timing yet. We had to get the timing down. So we let we had the actors walk and talk and do the scene. And they'd walk like six or eight blocks. This is how much dialogue there was. And like, that's the thing, if you're not nice to people, like you're never gonna get them to do this. We did a couple of tapes got the timing down, we're like, Okay, we got like, out of the eight pages, we just technically shot we got like one page of usable material, roll into another take the Jeep, the Jeep vary at a distance so that the sound guy can't pick it up, follows the actors. Or like or like maybe they can't remember maybe they rode around the block and we're ready at the other end. I think we figured that out later. Actors getting the Jeep drive back to set the rest of us walk, drive back to one, get their makeup touched up in the jeep. We the rest of us on foot, walk back and talk about what we have to adjust what we have to do differently that we roll into the next take and it's a lot

Sean Collins: 1:04:44

about just like rolling with the punches and like deciding it while you're doing it. Right.

Michael D: 1:04:49

It's I mean, that is that is I you know I'm a I'm a you know, I'm a American, middle class white guy with like, tight hip muscles. I Don't dance well. But that's like the closest I've ever come to like choreographing and to like, feel like I was dancing.

Dan Modern: 1:05:07

And did you guys, I don't want to say lucky because of COVID. But it almost made more sense for the film being, you know, insomnia and stuff. It was vacant. I mean, everything I know you said you live, it lived in a good part where there was not a lot of people around. But I mean, a lot of the scenes, there wasn't people walking around, there wasn't, you know, just random people in the streets. One, it was two in the morning, but you would think in New York,

Michael D: 1:05:30

I mean, look, if you get out to the outer boroughs, you do get some, but you don't get some that look quite the way that that neighborhood looked in terms of still looking like New York City instead of looking more like a New York suburb. Because they like there's a version of the sleepless that you could shoot in areas of Queens, but they're not gonna be that quiet. So it was a little bit of luck in terms of like, that's where we end, Rebecca, and I ended up living and where I came up with the idea for that movie, but like, honestly, like, my insomnia, like, was like, medically bad. And so like, I had some mornings where I was losing my mind. I did not sleep at all. It was like, four in the morning, I was crawling on my skin. I didn't want to wake up my wife, you know, and I would just leave the apartment. And I would walk to there's like a Dunkin Donuts that was open like 24 hours, or there was or like one Bodega that was open 24 hours. And I would just be like, I'm gonna just go for a walk and get a cup of coffee. Because it's like, even though it's like, and but then on those walks, I was like, It's really quiet. And I was like, Is that possible? That it's this quiet. I mean, because you hear it at night, you're like, I was kind of quiet. I'm sleeping, okay, but you hear stuff. But I'm like, I'm like, It's really quiet. I haven't experienced this before, in at that point, 16 years in New York City. And then, and at the same time, it's like, oh, this is really beautiful. Like the architecture. This bridge this like church, we just walked by this, this tree that's in the middle of a Brooklyn block with these incredible like, weeping like leaves. Were right by the park, which like, technically is closed, but there are people like in there. And in this area, there's not too many people doing drugs in the park that I know. And and that's kind of where I got the idea for the movie where I was like, Oh, I could set something like what if like, someone like me was out like this in this moment. And then there was a woman, you know, because I'm straight man. But there's a woman who was similar? And what if they met and what if, instead of it being weird, or after, it was weird, they just hung out. And like, you know, the before trilogy is a big influence on this movie, clearly, and I'm a big fan, I think that was in the back of my head to where I was just like, oh, I can make like my version of that. Or medicine for melancholy. As another one,

Sean Collins: 1:08:02

I think it's a good way to like, express the things that you're going through, you throw it into, like your art that you're making.

Michael D: 1:08:10

Yeah, and like I usually like hedge against that whole thing. Because I'm like, I think the way people can, some people can hide behind it, some people can, like, make it seem a little bit, a little casual about it. But I think in this case, it really was like taking the major problem that I was experiencing and smashing it together with another major problem, which was the stall development of this other movie. And, and kind of grinding them together into a solution,

Sean Collins: 1:08:39

the way that you can take not like negative things in life, but things that you're dealing with yourself. And you can project them to make something that other people can view and understand and something that becomes an art piece. Yeah. We we appreciate you coming on and hanging out and talking us through all the different scripts that you're writing and all the projects you're working on. Where is the best place that people can find you and find the things that you're you're creating?

Michael D: 1:09:07

My first answer was Twitter for so long, and I'm not on there anymore because it's a dumpster fire. Yes, it is. Instagram and LinkedIn are the best bet. You can always follow me on LinkedIn and Instagram and then FareShare films were really just getting started but they're both on verso films is on LinkedIn and Instagram and Facebook. And

Sean Collins: 1:09:29

then when's your next thing come out your next film?

Michael D: 1:09:33

I'm on Facebook too but it's not as like a very short films is but not me. I'm just there as a person with baby pictures. So the Yorkie werewolf I haven't said it in very many like official capacities like a podcast so like I'm still like, trying to say with a straight face. We're bringing that to AFM right now like the end of the month. So the goal is To sell it and then it'll be out sometime next year. So I don't know where it's going to be out people can by all means like watch the sleepless on Apple TV, which is where I how I get the most money if you want or Amazon Prime.

Sean Collins: 1:10:15

Well it's good. Thank you again for hanging out and we'll keep up with what you're working on.

Dan Modern: 1:10:20

Awesome. Have a good one.

Michael D: 1:10:21

Yeah thanks guys. It was it was fun good good talk